CT: Thank you again for agreeing to do this interview with me

SW: My pleasure!

CT: We got into an interesting discussion after your reading about Degas. You were explaining that he exposed the men lurking in the shadows in his paintings. Were they Balletomanes?

SW: I think so. At least that is my interpretation of some of his paintings--the shadowy men in the wings, yes, I think he was exposing them. Or at lease bringing these shadowed men to light.

SW: I don't now if he ever discussed it openly, his intentions.

SW: But his paintings and his sculpture of The Little Dancer were clearly revealing the difficult lives of ballet dancers at that time, the poverty, and also the fact that they were often dependent on men, sort of patrons I guess, for their livelihood

SW: It wasn't a glamorous job, in his time. There was romance about ballet dancers, but their lives were pretty brutal. They were mostly working class girls, or even poorer.

CT: I have always viewed ballerinas as beautiful, elegant, and intense; a combination of old world romanticism and athleticism. That interpretation was a little muddled when you explained that the ballet dancers back then were poor, working class, or even prostitutes.

CT: How is it that the definition of a ballet dancer changed so drastically?

SW: I know. It's really confusing. The aura they projected was very beautiful and sophisticated and elegant, but the realities of their lives were very difficult. I think he was interested in this dialectic, and that's what drew him to the subject of ballet dancers. He liked to show them behind the scenes, warming up, or after they performed, tired, and slouched

SW: It's funny that his paintings have become romantic in their own right because at the time he was painting they were (I think) somewhat scandalous!

CT: He always projected a very raw, strong, but gorgeous subject though. Maybe the scandal was also because the women were the subject of strength?

SW: That's an interesting interpretation--and it's true--he did portray his dancer as muscular and strong, not wisps of women like some of Balanchine's dancers

SW: Degas was scandalous for portraying, like you said, the non-idealized woman, and Picasso was attracted to that danger.

SW: But, again, back then the normal ballet dancers didn't think of themselves romantically, but rather as a kind of not-so-great job they did to make ends meet. Life expectancy was about 40 (if you lived THAT long!)

SW: Picasso was inspired and even obsessed with Degas. Cabaret singers, prostitutes, female nudes and dancers were subjects for both artists, but they also shared other attributes.

CT:  I wonder which of Picasso's paintings are influenced by Degas?

SW: Two paintings in which Picasso clearly was inspired directly by Degas paintings are “Women: Their Private World” and “Woman ironing” 

CT: That's so incredible. "Woman Coming Her Hair" is one of my favorite pieces!

SW: I know it's amazing. I love that one too. It's funny because before I wrote GIRL THROUGH GLASS and looked into Degas I thought he only painted romantic, sentimental portraits of ballet dancers

CT: She almost reminds me of your character Rachel

SW: There is so much there. Yes, the Woman Combing Hair DOES look like R. Purely coincidence!

SW: In America, you almost have to be born with enough money to pursue ballet seriously--except there is Misty Copeland, who perhaps is the exception that proves the rule?

CT: In any interpretation of art, you would have to be the exception if you're not born with wealth, wouldn't you?

SW: You mean that artists usually come from the wealthy? That it's usually only the wealthy that can afford to be poor for their art?

SW: Yes, that is more true than not, historically. It has always been a fight for immigrant artists, and working class artists, to find the resources and the permission to devote themselves to art, which can be so demanding and so unremunerated...

CT: I want to learn more about the balletomanes. Approximately, how long have they been around? And other than mentoring and providing financial stability, what is their role?

SW: I'm going to give this one a try - Balletomanes, I would think, have been around as a kind of species of fan from the time of the rise of the Romantic Ballerina (which has about mid-1800s). Maria Taglioni is often cited as the creating the cult of the ballerina. She was also the first to dance fully on pointe. This one source says that the first true balletomanes came around during the height of the Russian ballet craze, at the end of the 19th century, before the Russian revolution

SW Basically ballet moved from France to Russia at the end of the 1800s for reasons I can't quite remember. The Russian took up the torch and ran with it!

SW And that is, mostly, the ballet we inherited in the U.S.--the Russian expats, who had lived through the Russian Revolution, but who were trained pre-revolution, at the height of the Francophile ballet craze in Russia

SW Ballet moves all over the world in a kind of fever, it seems. The conditions of its success can vary widely, but still it captures obsessive fans

SW But I don't think balletomanes are as known in America. It really was a European phenomenon. I read a book called Balletomania, Then and Now by Arnold Haskell about his journey as a balletomane, which really helped me get into the mind of a balletomane

CT: Were they ever intimate with the ballerinas? Or was it purely for the art?

SW My sense is that they were mostly pretty wealthy men, perhaps mostly young? Who were looking for a passion, just like music is, maybe, now. Which band is coolest compared to which ballerina is coolest...

SW Ballet is so much light and beauty and so much that is hidden and repressed, I think he was trying to see both sides. I was too…

CT Exactly. Now I know why it always seemed a little dark and mysterious to me

CT When we write stories, as authors, we usually put ourselves in a few of the characters in our story: the protagonist, antagonist, and the ideal. To me, it seemed as though Sioban and Mira were the ideal, Mira and Kate were the protagonists, and Mira’s estranged father as (one of )the antagonists - casting a shadow over her childhood

CT Is that what you were going for? How much of yourself is in the characters?

SW I think there is some of me in all of the characters in GIRL THROUGH GLASS. And I was interested in creating complex characters, not simply good and bad ones. No one is purely good or evil. And yes, you are really perceptive in that you noticed Sioban and Mira are considered ideals by Kate/Maurice, but we also see that they are human and flawed because, ultimately the ideal is a flawed projection and no human can live inside the (artistic) ideal for too long

SW I didn't really think about the novel in terms of protagonist/antagonist...well, maybe that's not exactly true. I did think of Mira as a protagonist and Kate as a protagonist. And protagonists need obstacles to overcome in their pursuit of something. So Mira's father is both an antagonist, as you observed, but he is also an ally in some ways

CT: How so?

SW: Well, he was ally in that he got her away from her mother and Gary, which was a really unhealthy situation

SW I was looking at Degas’ “Dancer in the Clouds”, I think, when I was creating Maurice

CT Maurice was my favorite character

SW: That's so interesting you say that! Many people, especially men, hate him. But I am fond of him too

CT He was like someone you met in a very vivid dream

SW: The same with Maurice. He is antagonist and ally. I guess it is the complexity that I was most interested in discovering in these people

SW I was looking at Degas’ “Dancer in the Clouds”, I think, when I was creating Maurice

CT Maurice was my favorite character

SW: That's so interesting you say that! Many people, especially men, hate him. But I am fond of him too

SW Tell me--how did you see Mira’s father?

CT He just seemed very self-indulgent to me. I felt like Mira was looking for her father in Maurice. It was because of her father that she got so attached to him. She was always chasing someone who wasn't there for her, as she wanted him to be

SW: Yes, that's interesting. I think you are right. If her father hadn't left, she wouldn't have been looking for her father in Maurice. He is mostly an antagonist. He was very self-indulgent and quite selfish, as was her mother too, right?

SW: Differently, how did you feel about Rachel?

CT Rachel seemed like that mother who was always looking for love outside of what she already had

CT She was fiery, but for the wrong reasons

SW: As a writer, you are not always aware of everything you are doing in a story. You are following the characters and their own logic and not thinking very analytically

CT Oh, absolutely

CT: Leaving her daughter alone in the store, in the beginning, in the hands of strangers? Chasing a shadow

SW Oh, that is so lovely and perfect. A perfect description of Rachel!

CT  I'm so glad I got it on the nose!

SW Chasing a shadow...yes, Rachel was always chasing shadows. Her whole life she chased shadows

SW: She's actually a tragic figure if you look at her that way

SW There's one way to look at it--everyone seems to see something a little different in the characters. But I love your interpretations.

CT I like to write in first person narrative, a lot. When you do that, you get your reader to actually relate to the characters more because it engulfs them into the story. They feel like they're living it. 

CT That's how I felt with your writing

CT Is there anyone you know who compares to her?

SW: She's not one person, but sort of a composite of mothers I felt like I knew, friends' mothers and fathers, a whole generation of people who put their own self-development first before their children--this was the 1970s--and a lot of kids were left alone emotionally even if they had a roof over their heads...it was a kind of freedom and a kind of abandonment. My parents were not those people, but I witnessed many others...

SW: Thank you! I'm really honored to hear you say that. I tried writing Mira in 1st person but ended up changing her to 3rd person. 1st person can be really challenging but also really immediate, like you say...

CT: You mentioned the "ballet mother" in your story. Are they like pageant moms?

SW: Yes, totally. Ballet moms can be very overbearing and controlling and overly invested in their kids' successes. Partly, it's necessary because the training is so demanding from a young age, and requires so much sacrifice and commitment from the entire family. So there is often a mom behind a ballet dancer, and very rarely, a dad. 

CT Do you have anything to add before we end? Advice, thoughts, or anything about the story you would want readers to keep in mind?

SW Just that it's really a joy to encounter a reader like you, who responded to GIRL THROUGH GLASS on so many levels--both in terms of the characters and the emotional drama and also with the intellectual curiosity about ballet history and balletomanes, etc., and the history of art in general. There is so much to talk about!

SW: Please stay in touch and let me know where you research into ballet takes you...

CT: Yes, I definitely will stay in touch. It was so wonderful chatting with you. I really enjoyed your book, and I look forward to future projects

SW: Thanks for your interest in GIRL THROUGH GLASS and the process of writing it.